pH

fishheads1999 · Post by **fishheads1999** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:16 am

Hi Folks,
Help.

New to your club and starting with my first planted tank. My first tank will be a 20L because I wanted to start small and then convince my husband to give me more room (like 55G+). I've been breeding fish for awhile and all the info on your site has my head spinning.

I'm just beginning to understand pH relationships. I am wanting to start with pH close to the local water supply here in Fairfax county of 7.8. With breeding, I've run into problems lowering the pH even with a Tap Water Filter.

On a shoe string budget, does anyone have any suggestions for starter plants at such a high pH and hardness? I'll be using eco-complete. I'm working on better lighting.

Post by **krisw** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:24 am

Hi Fishheads,

I few plants that I've kept, have been easy, and have grown in just about anything I've put them in are:

Java Moss (Vesicularia dubyana)
Java Fern (Microsorum pteropus)
Hygrophila polysperma
Anacharis
Anubias barteri Nana

Really, you can probably do a lot with a ph of 7.8.

Additionally, if you want to lower your PH, you can add peat to your filter, and some people get a lowered PH when adding driftwood to their tanks.

Really, the easiest and least expensive way for you lower your PH is to add CO2 with a Yeast/Sugar reactor. The added CO2 will help your plants as well. You can <a href="http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/co2-narten.html" target="_blank">make your own out of a plastic bottle</a>, and some tubing, or you use a pre-built one like the <a href="http://www.hagen.com/usa/aquatic/produc ... 6900020101" target="_blank">Hagen reactor.</a>

But, even if you don't want to go the CO2 route, the plants I listed (and countless others) should grow just fine with your setup.

-Kris

Archie · Post by **Archie** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:21 am

[QUOTE=fishheads1999]
On a shoe string budget, does anyone have any suggestions for starter plants at such a high pH and hardness? [/QUOTE]

what is the hardness? if you want to go chemical, you can try Seachem's Discus buffer, but it will lower your KH too. you can also collect rainwater and mix it with your tap. i've use peat too, but IME it made the water too dark which interfered with lighting. i would just get clippings from people and start experimenting. It really depends on the setup you want. if you don't have good light, you might not need too much CO2. and then there's the issue of substrate...

SCMurphy · Post by **SCMurphy** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:09 am

Welcome to GWAPA, It's nice to meet you. <img border="0" src="smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0">

I would avoid using Discus buffer.

[quote=From the SeaChem site, emphasis added]Discus Buffer™ adjusts water to any acid pH in the range of 5.8–6.8. It is completely compatible with Neutral Regulator™ and may be combined with it in fixed ratios to yield a preset pH. It is <strong>totally phosphate based</strong> and is free of carbonates.[/quote]

I'd highly recommend using CO2 over the Discus buffer to lower your pH. We have enough problems with algae as it is.

I grow all kinds of plants in our local water, not worrying about the chemistry. Come to a meeting and buy some plants in the auction, less expensive than the stores, locally grown, and probably well adapted to the local conditions already. BTW, Using Eco-complete like you mentioned, should make your life a lot easier. A good substrate will grow many plants in "adverse" water conditions.

Ben Belton · Post by **Ben Belton** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 4:44 pm

On a shoe string budget, I suggest you tell your fellow club members to just cough up their extra clippings <img border="0" src="smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0"> You should be able to get tons of plants free or close to free that way.

How much light do you have? 20 long? 20 high. A 20 long is a short tank and might not require as much light as a 20 high.

With only 20 gallons, you should be able to have great success with yeast (DIY) CO2. Cheap and easy, but a little work. As long as you are willing, yeast CO2 should be able to keep up with about any reasonable amount of light you can put on a 20.

I agree with Sean, no pH buffer. Do the DIY CO2 and don't worry about the pH a whole lot. You should be able to grow great plants anyway.

BTW, if you are new enough that you don't know what DIY CO2 is, I'm sure there's a dozen people around here that can tell you <img border="0" src="smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0">

Good Luck,
Ben

Archie · Post by **Archie** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 1:21 am

[QUOTE=Archie] if you want to go chemical, you can try Seachem's Discus buffer, but it will lower your KH too. [/QUOTE]

Oops...I meant Seachem's Acid Buffer. yeah phosphate based is bad, but the acid buffer is phosphate free. Anyway, it was the only thing that would really lower the pH of my ltw, and depending on what you were breeding or want to breed, it could help. <edited><editID>Archie</editID><editDate>38051.01875</editDate></edited>

Ghazanfar Ghori · Post by **Ghazanfar Ghori** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 8:45 am

I agree - DIY CO2 will work well in your case.
You tank is small enough for itto be effective
and it's cheap! I've got some plants I'm trimming
out this weekend if you're interested.

fishheads1999 · Post by **fishheads1999** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:48 am

Wow Thanks folks!!

I am very interested in your suggested plants. I would appreciate any clippings offered. I am familiar with Java Moss, Java Fern, and the anacharis which blooms in my goldfish pond. I'll look up everything else. If anyone lives close in the Fairfax county area and would like to contribute, please let me know. I will be panning to attend the next auction.

I'll also be going to the PVAS Auction this Sunday to be picking up some oto's and anything else interesting. MAybe selling a few betta fry in the process.

Light: Currently I'm running 2 48" T-12's from a fixture in the ceiling about 2 ft from the top of the tank. Spectra Max 6500K and another cheap bulb from home depot labeled "Aquarium Light". I hope to convert to a better option at a later date.

DIY CO2: Found some info at www.animalnetwork.com how to make one.

I've also read at aquariumgarden.com that Hygrophila difformis is a good plant to have as a tell-tale for the nutrients in the tank. Anyone want to confirm this?

Thanks again for all your help!!!!

Pigheaddd · Post by **Pigheaddd** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 9:03 am

you can use soft resin to lower your pH. i can give you some when i get it end of this month.

RTRJR · Post by **RTRJR** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:08 pm

Most "softener resins" are sodium exchange and as such is not particularly desirable. Substituting sodium for calcium and magnesium lowers the GH by hobby test kits, but actually increases the TDS (total disolved solids), which is what really matters for breeding purposes with blackwater fish. For hobby purposes you can substitute KCL for NaCl as a recharge solution, which would likely be better, but still not necessary to grow plants.

The TWP is an acid/base exchanger, so while volume is limited by the GH and KH of your source water, it does actually reduce the TDS/GH/KH/pH. But if you are not breeding apistos or such, for planted tanks there is no reason to modify your water in this area. And if you are breeding blackwater fish, you might as well get RO (reverse osmosis) equipment.

pH

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