Fertz - what and where to buy?

[jweis]

If you are not noticing iron deficiency with the method you are using I see no need to dose it. In that case you would still only need one extra pump if you were not able to mix the N and P solutions for some reason.

OK thanks. I think I once I run out of the Pfertz I will go with the AquaVitro line and mix the N and P, then continue with root tabs and just manually add the liquid iron if I need to.

[Cavan]

Switching to Seachem Flourish Nitrogen is one of the changes Cavan has made recently and I suspect he will concur that it's worth it.

Yes, very much so. It's quite worth it and you can see a definite improvement in some plants. I have a very low fish load, and it probably makes more of a difference because of that. Getting the right dose takes some experimenting though.

I will say, though, that I really don't see much reason to use any of the commercial phosphate supplements. Nothing really advantageous about any of them that I can see.

[Cavan]

Thanks for the replies so far.

Jim Miller, how do you dose? I know you tend to research everything throughly.
Cavan, same question for you. I'm intersted in what you are doing EXACTLY since you have had such success with fixing your algae issues.

- Removed surface scum with skimmer/increased co2 to compensate and made a really efficient in-tank reactor.
- Added another canister filter and filled it with really good materials with high bacteria load/added Organit. Increased circulation.
- Change 50% of water every week. Clean filters every month in tank water. Vacuum gravel at each change. Remove all dead leaves.
- Started reconstituting tank water from RO. My tap water sucks. Yours may not.
- Using Flourish Nitrogen.
- Malawa shrimp/Amanos/tiny ramshorns.

I think my pH is too low and may cut back the co2 ramp up time now that I have ditched the diffuser and made something that really works.

[tug]

What ingredient in "Envy" (comprehensive carbohydrate, vitamin, amino acid, and polyunsaturated fatty acid supplement for plants) makes it a trace? What about the other minerals like, Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, B, Ni, Cl and Mo?

I agree w/ Cavan, PO4 you mix yourself is no different then the stuff you can get off of the shelf. You could mix a bottle that provides the same level of PO4 as the AquaVitro and mix w/ their N source, like Flourish Nitrogen.

FWIW, some of these statements are not as problematic as they might sound.

- stable pH of solutions and preservatives added to keep solutions stable and consistent

This can be done with the addition of acorbic acid (lowers the pH) and a little potassium sorbate (mold inhibitor). Some just add excel.

- nitrogen sources are complexed making them less available to algae and more available to plants

Not sure what Aron is saying. I have also thought that the additional forms of N available for planted tanks having a low fish load might be of some benefit but there are a lot of planted tanks that are beautiful without the additional sources. Maybe it provides for happier, larger good bacteria populations as well.

- chemicals used to mix them are of the highest purity (I've noticed K2SO4 is especially "dirty" when use the lab grade stuff most people use). A lot of folks will claim the cost is significantly cheaper to mix your own, but keep in mind they are using inferior grades of chemicals.

Not sure you will ever get Aquarium fertilizer.com to agree. Our DIY mixing practices might not be as accurate as they could be in a big lab. So, the possibility of error might be the biggest issue. Sounds like fear mongering to me.

However you decide to go, I'm sure it will work and the experience will make you stronger. As for additional iron, you can very easily make up a solution of Fe gluconate and/or DTPA Fe for an as needed iron dose.

[Cavan]

What ingredient in "Envy" (comprehensive carbohydrate, vitamin, amino acid, and polyunsaturated fatty acid supplement for plants) makes it a trace? What about the other minerals like, Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, B, Ni, Cl and Mo?

The other minerals are indeed in there, but are not listed. It's in the chlorella. I was using that instead of Flourish for a while but have gone to alternating days between them, as I already had nearly a full jug of the latter already on hand. It works quite well.

- nitrogen sources are complexed making them less available to algae and more available to plants

Not sure what Aron is saying. I have also thought that the additional forms of N available for planted tanks having a low fish load might be of some benefit but there are a lot of planted tanks that are beautiful without the additional sources. Maybe it provides for happier, larger good bacteria populations as well.[/quote]

It is somewhat of a luxury item as far as some plants are concerned, but it is a definite improvement, no doubt. It's less work for them to utilize. Seems some plants really start growing more vigorous roots when fed with it.

[Aaron]

FWIW, some of these statements are not as problematic as they might sound.

- stable pH of solutions and preservatives added to keep solutions stable and consistent

This can be done with the addition of acorbic acid (lowers the pH) and a little potassium sorbate (mold inhibitor). Some just add excel.

Right, but how much to add to get the pH just right? I'm no longer convinced excel is the greatest thing to be adding to tanks that already have CO2 addition. That's another discussion though.

- nitrogen sources are complexed making them less available to algae and more available to plants

Not sure what Aron is saying. I have also thought that the additional forms of N available for planted tanks having a low fish load might be of some benefit but there are a lot of planted tanks that are beautiful without the additional sources. Maybe it provides for happier, larger good bacteria populations as well.

All I can say is give it a try and hold on to your trimming tools.

- chemicals used to mix them are of the highest purity (I've noticed K2SO4 is especially "dirty" when use the lab grade stuff most people use). A lot of folks will claim the cost is significantly cheaper to mix your own, but keep in mind they are using inferior grades of chemicals.

Not sure you will ever get Aquarium fertilizer.com to agree. Our DIY mixing practices might not be as accurate as they could be in a big lab. So, the possibility of error might be the biggest issue. Sounds like fear mongering to me.

I wouldn't expect a competitor to agree that their product is inferior. Anyhow, that wasn't really my point. My point was that everyone makes cost comparisons using low grade chemicals as an example for the DIY side of the comparison. That is not an apples to apples comparison. If you compare mixing your own stuff using reagent grade chemicals the cost is significantly more. Try mixing a solution of K204 the same strength as Flourish Potassium using the K2SO4 supplied from aquariumplantfertilizer.com. You'll find a lot of crap sitting on the bottom of that container when you are done and it will not go into solution.


Anyhow, I'm not arguing that EI is bad or doesn't work. I'm making the case for closely mimicking what Julie was already doing and was working quite well for her. She seems inclined towards ease of use, which in my opinion is often overlooked even by myself.

[tug]

FWIW, some of these statements are not as problematic as they might sound.

- stable pH of solutions and preservatives added to keep solutions stable and consistent

This can be done with the addition of acorbic acid (lowers the pH) and a little potassium sorbate (mold inhibitor). Some just add excel.

Right, but how much to add to get the pH just right?

At James' planted tank, 0.5 grams per 500mL maintains a pH of 6, http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm

After Tropica released their Plant Nutrition Plus, which is an 'All In One' dosing solution, I became interested in doing the same to make life easier for myself. Normally it is advised to keep potassium phosphate and iron traces in separate solutions to prevent any reaction occurring that results in an insoluble precipitate of iron (III) phosphate. The chelated traces that are used contain iron that is complexed and as long as the iron remains complexed it should be safe from any reaction with the phosphate. The problem is that once the traces are in solution the chelator tends to deteriorate and so releasing the the iron. I discovered that the chelators used are a lot more stable in a solution with a pH of 6 or less. After a bit of experimenting I ended up using E300 Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) which not only keeps the solution acidic but is also an anti-oxidant. Enough is used so as to maintain a pH of 6. Another problem with keeping traces in solution is that they often tend to develop mould. To combat this I use E202 Potassium Sorbate which is a yeast and mould inhibitor. Luckily the Potassium Sorbate works most effectively at a pH around 6 which is what the solution is kept at… James' planted tank

I wouldn't expect a competitor to agree that their product is inferior. Anyhow, that wasn't really my point. My point was that everyone makes cost comparisons using low grade chemicals as an example for the DIY side of the comparison. That is not an apples to apples comparison. If you compare mixing your own stuff using reagent grade chemicals the cost is significantly more. Try mixing a solution of K204 the same strength as Flourish Potassium using the K2SO4 supplied from aquariumplantfertilizer.com. You'll find a lot of crap sitting on the bottom of that container when you are done and it will not go into solution.


Anyhow, I'm not arguing that EI is bad or doesn't work. I'm making the case for closely mimicking what Julie was already doing and was working quite well for her. She seems inclined towards ease of use, which in my opinion is often overlooked even by myself.

It's all good. As my Italian aunty would say, "If it doesn't kill you, it makes you fat." We can look at efficacy of product without arguing the efficacy of EI. There are those who argue CO2 and light efficacy are more important then the fertilizer source. That's not my intent, although I believe it. I don't have the level of experience to make comparisons in all circumstances. So I have learned a lot of things from this thread. At least I like to think I have an open mind.

CSM+B has it's ugly side, Cu levels can be a concern for some who don't use it and for those who do use it, adding an additional source of Fe is the main concern. I know of a few DIY CSM+B formulas out there with lower levels of Cu. This might be something to consider - selling are own dry trace mix.

KNO3, might not be enough for some plants in planted tanks w/low fish loads. I'm open to the idea, though additional nitrogen sources seem to be a luxury and who wants fewer fish other then myself and Cavan. Most tanks are more likely at capacity.

KH2PO4 - having just made a batch, it is hard to quantify the amount of stuff sitting on the bottom of my stock bottle. It is a negligible amount. Hardly what I would call "a lot of crap". I have more crap under one fingernail.

This mix provides more PO4 then Flourish Phosphorus and/or about 2/3 the amount in the AquaVitro Activate.

PO4 (Flourish Phosphorus, x5)
1Tbsp, KH2PO4
+1 Tbsp, K2SO4
top off 900 mL bottle with distilled water.
5cc/100 Liters provides (0.65ppm, PO4 & 0.75ppm, K+)

Again, the calculator makes all of this very easy to do. I would suggest both Julie, her friend and anyone thinking of starting their first planted tank play around with it and get their geek on. It is a very comprehensive tool and a great way to learn more about the branded fertilizers and the chemicals that they contain.

[Aaron]

I'm also a big fan of Carlo's fertilizer calculator and Carlo is a nice guy in general.

The KH2PO4 is pretty clean stuff. It's the K2SO4 I'm not impressed with. You'd have to mix in about 6 Tbsp in a 1 liter solution to roughly equal Flourish Potassium. I tried it once and the stuff in the bottom wasn't pretty.

[Jim Miller]

K2SO4 is the only thing that I (rarely) add to my tank that doesn't dissolve by the time it hits bottom. Based on plant symptoms (forget which now) I decided I get enough K via KNO3 and monopotassium phosphate.

jim

[jweis]

Again, the calculator makes all of this very easy to do. I would suggest both Julie, her friend and anyone thinking of starting their first planted tank play around with it and get their geek on.

Well, even though I am an admitted geek, I am overwhelmed with life these days, so I would much rather buy an easy, all ready figured out, line of fertilizers. Whenever (mostly, not always) I try to save money by doing DIY projects, I end up messing it up, wasting a lot of time, spending a lot of money, and often end up buying the commercial solution.

I really do appreciate all the advice though. Cavan's tip about the N to P ratio has already been helpful in getting some algae under control.

Ironically, my son's tank, which he rarely fertilizes or performs any maintenance, is algae free and looks great. His fish, mystery snails, and shirmp are incredibly happy. Go figure!