CO2 SYSTEM - Seeking Advice & Suggestions

[Tyger]

Greetings,

Given decision to start with easy to moderate care-level plants and modest goals for growth, I began with a Red Sea Turbo Growth Bio-System. Although I have kept successful standard aquarium set-ups with all natural environment though just a few super easy live plants for many years, I am making my first go at a fully planted aquarium and this product turned out to be a poor choice for many reasons (i.e., tank size (65-gallon), the pump was cheap and lasted less than a month, and 24-7 output, even with microbubble stone, is poor). Even so, aside the colossal failure of this product, I am pleased with how well the rest of the aquarium has come along and the overall stablization.

In any case, I have come to the conclusion that I would like to invest in a pressurized CO2 System. Although I have joined and will be attending monthly meetings with GWAPA, I have never, as of yet, seen an actual system in operation. And, as such, I wanted to tap the collected wisdom of the members of this forum to ask questions and get advice on set-up and brands.

AQUARIUM SET-UP

• Aquarium (65-Gallons : 36Lx18Dx24T)
• Catalina Lighting (4 x T5-HO 39w)
  • Morning : 2 Lights (6700k/10000k) (5-Hrs)
  • Mid-Day: 15 Moonlight LEDS (4-Hrs)
  • Evening: 2 Lights (6700k/10000k) (5-Hrs)
  • Night: 15 Moonlight LEDS (10-hrs)
• Marineland C-360 Cannister Filter (Inline CO2 Possible)
  • 1 Inflow Pipe (2 Intakes w/Sponges)
  • 1 OutFlow Pipe (1 Sprayer Bar (Moderate Spray) & 2 Ball-Sockets w/Flare Nozzles (Good Water Flow & Oxygen)
• Undergravel Filter
  • 2 Lift Tubes (2 Microbubble Airstones : Sync w/Moonlights)

ENVIRONMENTAL STATS

• Temperature: 73-75 F
• pH: 7.2-7.4/GH: 11-12/KH: 1-3
• Ammonia & Nitrites: ≈ 0ppm
• Nitrates: ≈ 0-5ppm

LIMITATIONS (Available Space):

Given the aquarium is a bedroom tank and equipment sprawl is not an option, CO2 System is limited to available cabinet space. CO2 System will be housed in a cabinet has the internal dimensions of 14.5"w x 17.5d x 25"h) which it will share with the Marineland C-360 Canister Filter (so, inline is possible). Consequently, I have come to think that my storage options are limited to Paintball Tank (24oz) or Standard Tank (2.5lbs) though I am open to correction or other options.

OBJECTIVES FOR CO2 SYSTEM

Even though I have not seen an actual system in operation, I have done a fair amount of research and viewed systems in operation in various online videos. When I thought about what I want to achieve through the installation of a CO2 System, I identified a handful of objectives:

• Growth & Health - looking to achieve lush healthy plants and fairly good, steady growth though not explosive steroid-like growth (e.g., stems growing 1" a week rather than 3"-5" a week which differs from what others prefer (as in this example).
• Water Clarity - looking for clear water not a lot of microbubbles and mist (≈ 100% Diffusion). I doubt plants will pearl though I am fine either way.
• CO2 Output - expecting that a fairly low bubble count should be sufficient (< 1 bps; ≈ 12-20 bpm) given good current and efficent method of diffusion.

RESEARCH

I have done a fair amount of reading and video watching; however, I have drawn most heavily on the following:

• CO2 Solubility Experiment - Photos, Video.....Evidence!
  • I found the posts throughout this article to be informative and rich and the discussion to be very educational and reminded me of my classes on neuroscience (e.g., active and passive transmission of ions across membranes in neural signaling). In any case, I would identify these posts as the most critical in my thinking:
    • Understanding Laws That Govern Gas Exchange
      • In summary, CO2 diffusion into normal water used in aquariums is very rapid, persistence of microbubbles or trapped gas in reactors is not CO2 (but, in the main is O2), while microbubbles provide visual of water current and dispersion, CO2 content is insignificant and microbubbles and mist are not necessary beyond visual, and, in short, efficient diffusion and good water current are essential (Note: I am summarizing what is relevant for my objectives not in general).
    • Prandtl boundary & Importance Of Water Current
      • Prandtil Boundary was an aside and is a complex topic deserving of an independent thread; however, the gist is that good water current around and over plants coupled with good diffusion method are the two most critical components relative to efficient use of CO2.
  • I found the description in this post to match-out with my own objectives and needs.
    • CO2 System Specs (Georgiadawgger)
    • CO2 System Specs (Georgiadawgger)
• Aquascape Equipment Set-Up
  • CO2 System appears to be straight fowards and well laid out and the water clarity matches my objectives. Obviously, I am considering an inline system.
• RedSea 500 Reactor
  • CO2 System uses a RedSea 500 Reactor which is the other option under consideration (vs inline with reactor). Given my experience with RedSea (CO2 Bio-System), I am a little leary though am open to feedback from those w/experience with RS 500 Reactors.

CO2 SYSTEM

With all of that said, I guess I will outline what I am thinking in terms of CO2 System:

• Storage Tank - Paintball (24oz) w/Adapter or Standard (2.5lb)
• Regulator - 2 Gauge (? 2-Stage, Blow-Off Valve ?)
• Solenoid - None (Low Bubble Count 24-7)
• Needle Valve - Good Quality; Moderate Price (Bubble Count As Low As 4-6 bpm; <$80.00)
• Method of Diffusion
  • Inline Reactor - leaning toward inline, prefer clear dyi as in the video Aquascape Equipment Set-Up.
  • RedSea 500 Reactor - benefit price, question efficiency, would like to know others experience (pro-or-con).
• Miscellaneous - bubble counter, brass-check valve, appropriate tubing, etc.,

QUESTIONS

• First, I guess I should begin by asking is my understanding on solid ground or am I did I go off the range and/or am I off my rocker.
• Second, I ask for advice or suggestions regarding the specs outlined for CO2 System (e.g., modifications, brands, places to purchase, thoughts on inline vs vortex method of diffusion).
  • Regulator - What is critical about 2-Stage? What is the value of a blow-off valve? Is it critical?
  • Reactor - Georgiadawgger doubled size of reactor from 15" to 30" which would still fit in my cabinet at angle (cf., video), I was wondering what others thoughts or experiences are with reactors in the 20" to 24" range and whether increase in the width (≈ 0.5" to 1") might not do the trick as well?
• Third, I ask for general advice on dos and don'ts for CO2 Systems, what to expect in terms of change in water parameters, things to watch for/be aware of, etc.,.

I know that I coverd a lot of ground and might have been more detailed that necessary (so I appreciate your patience). While I do not mind a bit of investment, I am new to planted tanks and would prefer to learn from experience, make fewer mistakes, and be as intelligent with the money I spend. Thank-you, in advance, for your thoughts and comments,

~Tyger~

[chris_todd]

Michael,
Phew! That is a lot to address in one post! Your research seems thorough and you're on the right track. The host of next week's meeting, Ghazanfar, has CO2 on most or perhaps all of his tanks, and there's lots of folks that can answer questions on CO2, so definitely get to a meeting if you can.

A few comments, though. I would think you should be able to fit a 5 lb canister under the stand without issue; they aren't much taller than a large canister filter. Second, the aeration you have (UG filter and spray bar) may cause CO2 to diffuse out ofthe water more quickly than you'd like. Third, I would do a mid day burst with all four T5 bulbs on instead on the LEDs. Fourth, you might want to raise your KH; low KH can cause problems with pH crashes if your parameters get a little out of whack. Fourth, I see no reason to go with a low bubble count; just dial it in until you're getting the desired CO2 concentration. If you want to limit growth rate, just cut the light period and or intensity. Finally, I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) the point of the blow off valve is to avoid end of tank dump. Though I have also seen arguments that if you get a very high quality needle valve (e.g. Fabco) this is not strictly necessary. I'll defer to experts on that one.

Good start, and I hope to meet you at a meeting soon!

[ingg]

You'll go nuts with a paintbasll setup, get a 5 pound tank.

One correction - PH swings induced from CO2 are largely meaningless to livestock, and not something to typically be concerned about. They happen in the wild too if conditions are acidic enough. Should you kill livestock, it is far more likely they had their gills burned out from CO2 than anything else, and that'll happen whether it is soft water with a huge PH swing or hard water with a smaller one.

I am curious how you are getting a GH of 11 with a KH of 1 though. That is not all that easy to do... using buffers or something?

Yes, blow off/pressure relief valves are used for EOTD avoidance. Personally, I know one person only who hs ever said they experienced an end of tank dump. I think he's doing something ealse personally.

[Cristy Keister]

Yes, blow off/pressure relief valves are used for EOTD avoidance. Personally, I know one person only who hs ever said they experienced an end of tank dump.

I've had it happen 3 times now.

[jcali10]

Welcome Tyger, it's great to hear from another enthusiastic aquarist. Wow, that is a lot of information you put up, so don't think I can give you a comprehesive response, so I will try to make some helpful comments.

A 65G is a very nice size tank for an aquascape. Your lighting seems adequate; with 2.4 wpg T5HO you should be able to grow most plants, even some with a little color, and even some foreground plants. With that much light, you would be in the medium light range and you would definitely benefit from CO2 injection. But it looks like you are running only 2 lights at a time, for 10 hours a day. I am not talking about the moonlights, they are inconsequential as far as plant growth goes. That would put your output at 1.2 wpg which is pretty low. I think you should run all 4 T5HOs for at least 8 hrs a day. I have 4 x 39w bulbs on my 50G, I run them 10 hrs a day, from noon to 10 pm daily. Works well for me.

You posted about an undergravel filter. I don't think you will find one person in GWAPA or any other serious aquatic plant club that uses that kind of filtration. A canister is definitely a good idea. You want good circulation; something that could turn over your water about 10 times an hour would be optimum in my opinion. You may even want a Koralia power head one day for extra circulation.

If your stand has 25 inches of room under the tank, you have plenty of room for a 10 lb CO2 tank. Bigger is always better when it comes to CO2. Again, that's just me. You pay about the same (maybe $3 difference) to fill a 5 lb tank as a 10 lb tank, and the same goes for a 10 and a 20, so go as big as you can, it's more cost efficient and a 10 pounder should last you a good 8-12 months, since you are looking at using a pretty low bubble count.

I would search ebay for co2 diffusers or reactors, you will be surprised at what you will find, and the prices are usually very reasonable. Of course if only the best will do, there is alway ADA, but you will have to pay $$$$.

For slower growth, you can choose slower growing plants, you can run your lights for shorter periods of time, and you can use a fert dosing regime that does not encourage such vigorous growth.

For water clarity without CO2 microbubbles, you would want to stay away from a ceramic disc type diffuser and get something you can run inline with your canister filter.

A drop checker would allow you to monitor the CO2 level of your tank. I have one but don't really use it. If the plants and fish are happy, I'm happy.

I won't try to advise you on inline reactors, I use diffusers. As far as regulators go, mine are all single stage. They are the most common and least expensive. The dual stage ones are quite a bit bigger and bulkier, and more expensive, but it's true, they should totally eliminate any possibility of EOTD. A quality needle valve is said to do the same thing. I'm thinking maybe a Fabco or Swagelok needle valve.

Good luck with your set up. Success is not hard. Sometimes being patient is.

[Aaron]

That was quite thorough indeed.

I'm curious about your lighting schedule? Is there a reason for the break in lighting midday? Most of us with 4 bulb systems with two switches run 2 bulbs for 2.5 hours followed by all 4 bulbs for 5 hours followed by 2 bulbs for 2.5 more hours to give a total 10 hour photo period and a 5 hour midday burst of light to simulate when the sun would naturally be at its brightest.

As for the CO2 I've tried just about everything under the sun and I've come to the conclusion that building your own system is the way to go.

Tank - Go with a 5 lb. tank. They're easy to find for refills or swaps and it'll last you 4-6 months.

Regulator - Get a nice dual gauge regulator that allows you to read the pressure in the tank and to adjust the output pressure of the tank.

Solenoid - My vote is yes. There's no need to waste CO2 at night. Many people use one from Clippard. There is another one from Burkert that a lot of people are liking now too. Both require a little DIY as far as wiring the power cord, but it's not too hard.

Needle Valve - Fabco, Swagelok, or Ideal are the brands you want to be looking at. All three of them are accurate. The Swagelok and Ideal I know can also hold pressure well beyond the pressure in the tank and will prevent end of tank dump.

CO2 Resistant Tubing - yes, it makes a difference.

Check Valve - Get a quality brass one and run it just after the needle valve.

Bubble Counter - Personally I like using these inline and I run it just after the check valve.

Diffusers - I find the ceramic diffusers are the best. Inline and reactors both rely on the flow of the canister filter, which varies too much. It's also not great for the bacteria in the filter to be pumping CO2 into it. The ceramic diffusers are nice because you can visibly see when they need cleaning. I've been using these from Ista with very nice results.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ISTA-CO2-UFO-Diffus ... 588c00a931

[Tyger]

First, thank-you, to folks for taking a moment to share their thoughts and advice (and anyone who might add to this post after this one); it definitely gives me some leads and directions to travel. In response, I thought I would add a few notes:

Welcome Tyger, it's great to hear from another enthusiastic aquarist.

Thanks

A 65G is a very nice size tank for an aquascape. Your lighting seems adequate; with 2.4 wpg T5HO you should be able to grow most plants, even some with a little color, and even some foreground plants. With that much light, you would be in the medium light range and you would definitely benefit from CO2 injection.

When I purchased the aquarium, I calculated wpg using the same quick and easy method (watts/gallons=wpg) and lead me to by a 4 T5-HO 36" 39watt lighting set. Originally, I planned on a day-light cycle of 10-hours using 2 6700 bulbs (2 x 2HO x 39w = 2.4 wpg) with a mid-day burst of 2 6700 + 2 10000 (4 x 2HO x 39w = 4.8 wpg). Of course, and possibly in absence of adquate input of CO2, I found I began to have issues with spots of algae on Anubias and pretty rapid growth on aquarium glass (Thank God for Mag-Float Cleaner).

Although I have a tiger hillstream loach, two bamboo shrimp, several otos, and eight zebra nerites, I thought I will bolster the cleaning crew with additional members. After an initial test with three cherry shrimp to determine whether or not I was investing in shrimp rather than an expensive fish food, I have added several Cherry and several Anamo Shrimp. And, more recently, a pair to true SAEs to help with the rare tuft of bearded algae.

While the additions to cleaning crew were hard at work and making some impact on the algae within tank, I continued to struggle with algae build-up on the glass. So, I began to do some addition reading about lighting and discovered several things relative to my own tank.

First, I found that HO really means HO (not x1.25 or x1.5 as some places suggested but really close to watts x2). Second, I found some things that seemed to make sense and seemed to help with my current situation:

I found an article called PAR vs Distance Article by Hoppy which factors in distance, depth, and bulb types and suggests my lights were overkill and lead me to cut down to 2 bulbs (especially, in absence of adequate input of CO2):



In addition, I was reading "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" (p. 178-179) by Walstad who notes effective use of Seista Regime (5-4-5-10) to give a natural boost of CO2 and simulate longer daylight cycle of summer to boost natural growth patterns in plants in absence of effective CO2. It also works well for my personal life as I enjoy the aquarium mornings before work and well into the night when I am home (and, so may keep to this schedule regardless of addition of CO2 System).

In any case, I have scaled back the lighting to what would be medium lighting on this chart (2 bulbs) and moved to seista lighting which has resulted in significant drop in algae (virtually no algae on the glass) some spot algae on the Anubias which keeps the algae crew working and the occasional tuft breaded algae which managed by the SAEs or snipped and removed by yours truily.

So, at the moment, I am holding to what works. I have thought of a couple of different options:

• CO2 injection should help plants compete with algae and help vanish it
• CO2 injection should allow me to shift back to more light
• I have thought of building a dyi light stand to get the lights 6"-8" off the surface and going back to medium lighting w/mid-day burst based on PAR vs Distance
• I have thought about selling my lighting set-up and replacing it with a identical set-up save 3 T5-HO w/15 LED (and three separate plugs 2 T5s, 1 T5, 1 LED)
• at present, I am not looking at a stelnoid (as explained above) though as a down the road purchase, I think that I would opt for a pH Controller and stelnoid combination over a day-night cycle (pH 6.6-6.

I am not suggesting I have the answers merely outlining the struggles and path to get me from there to here .

~Tyger~

[Tyger]

I am curious how you are getting a GH of 11 with a KH of 1 though. That is not all that easy to do... using buffers or something? <Sniped>

Well, I think that Annapolis, MD has pretty soft water (cold water out of the tap):

• pH ≥ 8.8 (API High pH tops out)
• GH = 5-6
• KH = 2-3

... coupled with two beautiful croppings of wood (each cropping is attached to an inch thick slate from a pool table top that is made-up of two separate pieces of wood worked into a single stand):

Aquarium Pre-Stages:

Aquarium Early Development:

[Tyger]

Unfortunately, I think the cabinet space limitations are better illustrated with a picture (see below) though I definitely agree bigger is better. I am doubtful about even a 5lb, but maybe I can role a peice of cardboard into cycler height and width of tank to double check on 5-10 lb options which would be better.



~Tyger~

[ricoishere]

[/quote]
coupled with two beautiful croppings of wood (each cropping is attached to an inch thick slate from a pool stable that is made-up of two separate pieces of wood worked into a single stand):[/quote]

That wood is pretty cool. Where did you find it?