Dosing revisited

[andreyka]

Dear fellow club members,

I'm compiling a spreadsheet to compare dosing routines of different club members for a CO2-injected, high-light tanks in an effort to find out how dosing might depend on different factors. Having general recommendations from articles and forums is one thing and looking at the actual figures (and comparing them in context of particular tank parameters) is totally different story. So, if you want to help us newbies to get a grasp on what works and why, could you, please, provide the following info (for a CO2-injected, high-light tank):

Dosing. I put that in the table as daily ppm doses. If it's in terms of teaspoons or milliliters, I need to know the tank size and frequency of dosing to calculate the daily ppm doses:
- Nitrate
- Phosphate
- Potassium
- Magnesium
- Iron
- Traces
- Excel (or other form of glutaraldehyde)

Nitrate and phosphate levels if you care to measure them.

Factors (besides CO2 and light) that might affect the need for dosing:
- Water kH and gH (or, at least, is it tap, well, or RO (then reconstituted with what?))
- Frequency and scale of water changes
- Substrate
- Tank age
- Plant load
- Fish load
- Sump of canister filter
- Anything else?

Picture of the tank wouldn't hurt either .

I would sincerely appreciate your input.

[jcali10]

That's a lot of info you're requesting. I kinda use the Estimative Index dosing method now and measure my N and P every Mon. Wed. and Fri. What I have been finding is my N, and P are usually at target levels, with nitrates sometimes a little too high, and the Phosphates sometimes a little too low. But mostly I find myself just adding some CSM+B, and some potassium. All has been going well plant wise, and algae wise. I guess a pic would be nice.

[krisw]

Andrey, I assume you already have all of my numbers, right? Or did you need anything more?

[tug]

Rather then limit the data to high light, why not ask for PAR values and/or the type of light fixture, method of CO2-injection, flow rates, types and number of plants rather then plant load. Type/origen and number of fish, rather the fish load. What algae is visible in the tank would be interesting to know as well.

What are you looking for, exactly? It's not much of a stretch to recognize Ca and Mg doses can be adjusted depending on the water we start with i.e., tap, well, or RO and the amount and/or frequency of water changes. Same with dosing NPK although possibly less so. But, a little information as to what you are looking for would help.

An area that would interest me is KH and GH. Some of us (that's me) still can't get our heads wrapped around the importance of KH and I find this to be extremely frustrating in terms of conflicting advice. Tom Barr for years now has insisted that KH < 1 does not matter as much as GH. He is trying a planted tank for rift lake cichlids. Maybe he has changed his tune but I have yet to ask him on his progress. As far as canister filters go I know he is changing over to sumps on all of his tanks because he tested O2 levels finding they stay higher with sumps but that seems to be more about keeping the fish and BB happy.

Anywho, good luck. It's all good.

[andreyka]

...I kinda use the Estimative Index dosing method now and measure my N and P every Mon. Wed. and Fri. What I have been finding is my N, and P are usually at target levels, with nitrates sometimes a little too high, and the Phosphates sometimes a little too low. But mostly I find myself just adding some CSM+B, and some potassium...

That means you are not doing the EI. Original EI calls for the following daily doses:

7.1 ppm NO3
2.33 ppm PO4
5.9 ppm K
0.15 ppm Fe

That is a gross overdose 'to make sure that nothing is a limiting factor', and then one 're-setts' the system with 50-60% weekly water change.

...mostly I find myself just adding some CSM+B, and some potassium...

'Some' is not a very quantitative measure. Can you, at least, provide a rough estimate?

...I guess a pic would be nice.

What's holding you back?

[andreyka]

Andrey, I assume you already have all of my numbers, right? Or did you need anything more?

I got them, Kris. I couldn't find the part where you've told me what kind of substrate is in the tank(s). I would also like to add info on what water do you use (tap, isn't it?), and how old is the tank.

[andreyka]

Rather then limit the data to high light, why not ask for PAR values and/or the type of light fixture, method of CO2-injection, flow rates, types and number of plants rather then plant load. Type/origen and number of fish, rather the fish load. What algae is visible in the tank would be interesting to know as well.

What are you looking for, exactly? It's not much of a stretch to recognize Ca and Mg doses can be adjusted depending on the water we start with i.e., tap, well, or RO and the amount and/or frequency of water changes. Same with dosing NPK although possibly less so. But, a little information as to what you are looking for would help.

An area that would interest me is KH and GH. Some of us (that's me) still can't get our heads wrapped around the importance of KH and I find this to be extremely frustrating in terms of conflicting advice. Tom Barr for years now has insisted that KH < 1 does not matter as much as GH. He is trying a planted tank for rift lake cichlids. Maybe he has changed his tune but I have yet to ask him on his progress. As far as canister filters go I know he is changing over to sumps on all of his tanks because he tested O2 levels finding they stay higher with sumps but that seems to be more about keeping the fish and BB happy.

Anywho, good luck. It's all good.

That's exactly what I'm trying to do - to limit the data to CO2-injected, hight-light tanks. Because that's the type of tank I have. There are a lot of variables besides that. Between your post and Joe's "that's a lot of info you are asking for", I think I'm asking for just enough for me to figure out my personal dosing routine. I believe, it might help others as well.

...What algae is visible in the tank would be interesting to know as well...

Can't agree more. To make my goals more clear I will state that I'm not looking for a dosing advice that would lead to an algae-ridden swamp. On top of that, I'll say that I want to be able to grow majority of the plants out there (ideally - any of them), but I thought that all of it was kind of obvious.

... As far as canister filters go I know he is changing over to sumps on all of his tanks because he tested O2 levels finding they stay higher with sumps but that seems to be more about keeping the fish and BB happy.

The reason I'm asking for 'do you have a canister filter or a sump' is that I believe that these two would have different nitrate consumption rates (besides other differences). All I need to know is whether you run a canister or a sump, that's it.

[andreyka]

Related discussion of my tank case can be found here: http://gwapa.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5467

[tug]

Andrey, I didn't mean to be presumptuous. Just trying to help. Those of us using CO2 and mid-level light experience nutrient deficiencies that are still applicable.

That means you are not doing the EI. Original EI calls for the following daily doses:

7.1 ppm NO3
2.33 ppm PO4
5.9 ppm K
0.15 ppm Fe

No, EI states under high light with high levels of CO2 and a heavily planted tank you can dose within a range i.e.,
NO3 ~ 15 - 30ppm/week or 2-4 doses at 7.5ppm (3.2ppm/daily)
PO4 ~ 2.6 - 5.2ppm/week or 2-4 doses at 1.3ppm (0.6ppm daily)
K ~ 15 - 30ppm/week or 2-4 doses at 7.5ppm (3.2ppm/daily)
Sorry for all of the edits.

Fe is a proxy for dosing trace nutrient levels and a dose of 0.15ppm, 3x week is within the range of EI doses As a general practice, to increase iron levels further, supplemental iron using different chelators are also added.

Edit Original EI target ranges
CO2 range 25-35 ppm
NO3 range 10-30 ppm
K+ range 10-30 ppm
PO4 range 1.0-2.0 ppm
Fe 0.1-0.5ppm or higher
GH range 1-2 degrees "extra" 17-40 ppm or higher

So, it's a guid. I don't think anyone doses EI without adjusting it to find that sweet spot. Lower levels do not mean you are limiting plant growth per se. It's just that higher levels provided have been shown to be unnecessary in a fully planted tank with CO2 supplementation.

The nutrient that people seem to be the most resistant to adding is Phosphate - a useful animal cell buffering agent, a component of DNA, RNA, ATP, phospholipids, bulbs and flowers. Most high light/CO2 injected tanks report dosing PO4 levels above 0.5ppm/day to prevent GSA outbreaks and insure they have non-limiting levels for their plants. Personally, I find dosing PO4 to be important even in my mid-light tank. PO4 levels in my tank are often above 2ppm by weeks end if I were to trust the highly inaccurate results of my testing. Yet, when I reduce the PO4 dose to <0.5ppm/day I get GSA - the PO4 dosed has actually helped prevent GSA.

EI allowed me to remove one variable and focus on the lighting levels and the CO2 required.
The Estimative Index of Dosing, or No Need for Test Kits - http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.ph ... 17#post217

[tug]

Kris,
Do you still use a pH controller for injecting CO2?