What do you use to disinfect a tank?

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PadreJP
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Post by PadreJP »

kerokero wrote: I never really thought about antibiotic pollution but I guess few people realize how much is actually getting tossed into our rivers.
It's a staggering amount. Again, the greatest source (by far) is agriculture, as most animal feeds (whether intended for cows, pigs, chickens, you name it) are injected with prophylactic levels of antibiotics at production. The agricultural benefits of the use of such treated feeds are unquestionable: animal morality rates from infections of all sorts are much lower, and the average weight of animals significantly higher, in animals fed with antibiotic-laced feeds as compared to those fed feeds without antibiotics. (This is going back, again, probably 15 years ago to the last time I researched this, so perhaps things have changed today though honestly I doubt it.) The problem is, no one really ever asked the environmental question before. I mean, if these are chemicals that are safe for us to take into our own bodies, how could they possibly be bad for the environment? That was the prevailing attitude until very recently, when studies started popping up demonstrating that bacteria in the soil, or in groundwater/rivers near large farms, had significantly higher resistance to a whole variety of antibiotics than these bacteria normally have. This started raising all sorts of red flags about the impact of this.

It's also worth noting that the reason environmental levels can get so high has to do with the animal (and, for us, human) waste. For many common antibiotics, less than 50% of the dose taken into our bodies (or the animals' bodies) is actually metabolized. With some antibiotics, it can be as low as 10 or 15%. All the rest is excreted, unchanged, right into wherever the waste is going.
It's shocking especially since (to my understanding) low doses of antibiotics would just help bacteria build resistance where low doses of bleach or alcohol would likely just be metabolised into the system like other simple chemicals. Very scary thought (and one of the reasons I like "organic" - less antibiotics).
Yes, exposure (especially long-term exposure) to sub-lethal levels of antibiotics are probably the greatest cause of the development of antibiotic resistant strains. Some bacteria actually have an active mechanism by which they can adapt to certain toxic chemicals and "learn" to neutralize them. (Similar, though in a way less sophisticated way, to our own immune systems becoming immune to certain diseases after we have been exposed to them and fallen ill with them once.) In these cases, if the first exposure doesn't kill the bacteria (and a first exposure via the environment is far from likely to be a lethal dose), you basically help create a strain of superbug. Plus you have a Darwinian sort of mechanism operating as well; if you had 10 million bacteria in a certain water aquifer and that aquifer gets exposed to a low-level of an antibiotic, maybe 9.5 million of those bacteria die, but the strongest half million survive. Well, what happens next? Now with all of their competition gone, that half million--which already showed the highest resistance to the antibiotic--starts multiplying at a highly accelerated rate. Give them a few weeks (or however long it takes), you now once again have 10 million bacteria there...only now all 10 million come from an original set of "parents" who proved themselves resistant to this particular antibiotic. Now, you have a problem...
I'd be more interested in seeing what the alcohol would also take care of, but at least - like bleach - it could be easily applied to all nooks and crannies, as well as any decor and what not you wanted to keep. It's something that could be an easy "preventative" that wouldn't be a harmful overkill, at least in theory. It's much like the bleach useage.
Alcohol is actually even better than bleach because you wouldn't even have to rinse it. Let it sit for a few hours and it will completely evaporate away. As long as it's pure alcohol & water, there won't be any residue of any sort left.
Fr. John Paul Walker, O.P.
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krisw
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Post by krisw »

The agricultural benefits of the use of such treated feeds are unquestionable: animal morality rates from infections of all sorts are much lower, and the average weight of animals significantly higher, in animals fed with antibiotic-laced feeds as compared to those fed feeds without antibiotics.
Getting way off topic, but Michael Pollen argues in "Omnivore's Dilemma" that the only reason these antibiotics are needed at all is because cattle are being kept in confinement in numbers far too great for their environment, often standing in their own feces. Takes these animals, and put them in grazing environments, rotated to new fields, you eliminate the need for 99% of the antibiotics, fertilize/replenish the fields, and have happier/healthier animals. Buy into that, and the use of treated feeds becomes questionable. ;-)

In addition, pharmaceuticals are becoming more and more present from folks flushing their leftover drugs down the toilet. At present, very few water treatment facilities are equipped to filter such compounds. Another reason not to contribute further to the problem. Alcohol sounds good to me.
B Considine
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Post by B Considine »

Further thread hijack:

Joel Salatin's Polyface Farm is an example of rotating animal lots

Blaise
kerokero
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Post by kerokero »

Cattle are not the only animals that have the issue of the overcrowding causing overmedicating... it popular with fowl like chickens and turkey as well. A particular case study relating to the issue of run off from chicken farms on the Eastern Shore of MD showed multiple issues... extra nutrients causing algae blooms which caused dead zones (which destroy oyster beds because they can't move... among other issues), that wonderful infection that I can't spell that took out the fish and a couple of fishermen while it was at it... and the antibiotics that were distinctly poultry in origin.

And then birth control hormones started causing all sorts of issues (I can't remember what happened, and if this was the specific issue that caused male fish to start developing ovaries). Birth control hormones of all things! Another reason to take low dose hormones... but a rather significant shock. How do you filter these things out of the water?

We should scrap cattle in the US anyways and grow Bison. They need less food, actually metabolize more than 10% of what they eat (cattle are the worst at this, which is one other reason they are horrid polluters, the hormones and antibiotics going into their feed only compounds this), don't rip up the ground nearly so much, and are healthier for you :D

I will pay extra $$$ to get meat that doesn't have the extra hormones and antibiotics in it. Organic veggies not as much since they still over fertilize even if what they use is "more natural" :roll:

Back to the original thread, yay for simple and better for the environment alcohol! I didn't realize it would completely evaporate. Very nice. Can it replace bleach in general or should it be kept as a partner to be used in conjunction with? Less work and less influence on the environment. I like!
Best, Corey
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PadreJP
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Post by PadreJP »

Lots of good points made in those last few posts. It is so true that the conditions we keep animals in has a lot to do with their susceptibility to disease. In the big picture, issues like algal blooms are (usually) of more significance than antibiotic resistance, at least in the short-to-medium term. The presence of sex hormones (primarily though not exclusively from birth control pills) as well as a whole slew of other "estrogenic" compounds (i.e. compounds that have chemical functional groups that mimic one or more of the active sites on estrogen and related hormones) in commercial drinking water is a huge issue as well that we know very, very little about and yet there is little scientific research currently, partly because some early, preliminary research in this area is leading in a direction that could make the topic a political minefield due to the possible links in the area of human (at least male) homosexuality.

Anyway, thankfully here in GWAPA such questions are outside our realm of concern. :)
Back to the original thread, yay for simple and better for the environment alcohol! I didn't realize it would completely evaporate. Very nice. Can it replace bleach in general or should it be kept as a partner to be used in conjunction with?
I would not consider alcohol a replacement for bleach except under limited conditions. Alcohol in most situations is really only effective against bacteria, nothing else. Bleach, on the other hand, at normal disinfection conditions is effective against virtually every sort of microoganism out there--bacteria, fungi, protozoa, heck even a fairly large variety of virii. Thus in most situations when disinfection is desired, the much larger range of microorganisms makes bleach the better choice. However, bleach is also more difficult (and unpleasant) to use and poses a greater health hazard to the user than alcohol does. Thus if one is only concerned about a bactericidal effect, alcohol is usually the easier and better choice.
Fr. John Paul Walker, O.P.
magsdez
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Post by magsdez »

The only problem I've encountered with using alcohol as an disinfectant is that on acrylic tanks, it cracks the tank. I made the mistake of using alcohol on an eclipse 6 gal and watched in horor as cracks developed all over the place. I was using the alcohol because I have had a reaction to bleach in the past. Any suggestions for acrylic tanks?
Bridget
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