A bit frustrated... need a little help.

[Dekker001]

I posted this earlier on PVAS, but now that I can post here I thought I'd come to the experts <cough><suckup>

Ok, so I took the plunge and decided to try a run at live plants. I knew going in that they are a lot more challegning that fish in many ways, but I am feeling a bit lost and stuck in a corner.

I will try to be as complete as possible with everything i know about the setup, but if I missed something, let me know.

Because I will be replacing this tank with a newer 150 in a couple of months, I have set in my mind that this is a learning tank. Based on what I learn here I may do things drastically different from the bottom up. Cable heating and canister filters prolly

I am hoping I have a few things majorly wrong instead of a million little things wrong, but we'll see. I have already decided to go with a solid blue or black background on the next tank.

The pics are not professional quality, they are just for illustration

I know this is a long post, and I apologize. I just feel like I am missing something...





Ok
Tank was set up 2 months ago.


Hardware

125g
76deg
0ppm Ammonia
0ppm Nitrites
20ppm Nitrates
300+ hardness
Ph 7.8 to 8.0
30% water change every week (well water-no softener or chlorine)
Substrate is Eco-compplete black about 3 inches deep.
2 300w heaters set horizontally acros the back right above the substrate.
1 Aqua-clear 400 with nothing but sponge in it
1 Emperor 280 with the carbon removed from the filter pads

My water comes out of the well like liquid rock, great for cichlids, not so great for plants. I just put in a 300 gallon rainwater collection this weekend... now if it would only rain.
Ferts.

Flourish 12ml (per directions) 3x a week.


DIY CO2
I did everything I could think of to make this efficient. I took some aquaclear sponge and cut it to fit inside the pre-filter of a hagen powerhead. Then I froze the sponge in a block of ice and drilled a 1" hole from the bottom almost all the way to the top.
The bubbles get trapped in the hole and have to work through the foam, then they get chewed up by the powerhead and shot downwards in a fine mist of tiny bubbles.

Lighting

18 seperate 27w 6500k spiral compact florecent bulbs in 3 hoods.(486 watts total) Air cooled by a seperate fan in each hood and vents on the sides.
Inside of hoods painted gloss white for reflectivity.
Lights are on from 8am to 12 noon, then 2:30pm to 9pm. (I read that a siesta can inhibit algae)
I know these are a big "unknown" for lighting. I chose this route because I was able to get 500w of 6500k lighing for under $100 total (wood,sockets,bulbs)

Fish

20-25 assorted tetras and 5 danios (for color)
5 Corydoras (bottom duty)
4 small clown loaches (snail duty)
1 Bristlenose cat (algae)
10 Ottos (algae)

Fish are fed 1-2 times a day, and I have to use sinking pellets to get some to the bottom or they tetras get it all in less than 1 minute.

Plants I will identify in the pics.

First off not EVERYTHING to enter the tank has died.

The plants in the center of this pic I have not yet identified. They came from a lake near my parents house. The bottoms of the plants are not great, the lighter tops seem to be doing well and show new growth.



and even sending out what looks like a runner



I just put in about 10 pounds of Val from 2 weeks ago to try to increase my plant load, and because I found out they like hard water, and can soften it.They seem to be producing a lot of oxygen, but are now getting covered in hair algae. I see a small ammount of root growth on one or two near the side glass.

This is one of the corners I feel backed into (my own doing). I was using Flourish Excel to knock down the BBA but I have been told and seen on a few forums that excell melts Vallisneria. <sigh>





Even the Java Ferns that are supposed to be unkillable look like crap.





The one plant that seems perfectly happy is a plant in the back that I thought was hygrophila corymbosa, but doesn't look like any of the pics I have seen.






I am hoping that I may be able to find some good foreground plants to try to increase the nutrient uptake.




Ok, things that I am considering for the new tank.

Cable heating

Silver sand bottom with Laterite or mineralized soil on top, covered with a final layer of Eco-Complete.

LED Lighting. I am going to set up a small hex tank for experiments with a 1x1 foot panel.

Canister Filters - This is going to be a big expense, and never having used them before I am really worried about floods on our hardwoods floors.

Heavier planting of the foreground

[jcali10]

Hello and welcome Dekker001 from PVAS, very interesting first post. So there's a meeting on Saturday, 8/7. I may attend, it would be my first one.
Lots to consider in your post, and I am not an expert, but I enjoy keeping fish and live plants none the less.

Interesting that you have a 125G and feel you need to go larger. Bigger is better. I will share a few comments. I will stick to some of the easier inquiries.

Water parameters: high pH, I think most aquatic plants like a lower pH, slightly acidic water, but there are always exceptions. Sorry, I don't know much about changing water chemistry, I just work with my tap water.

Eco Complete is a suitable substrate, 3 to 4 inches should do fine. You don't need to invest in substrate heating. I have read about it, but I don't know anyone that actually heats their substrate.

Filters and CO2
A canister is well suited to planted tanks. Flooding is not an issue, even when there are power outages. I think flooding is more of a concern if you have a sump type filter. I will set up a sump one day, it can be done safely.

The waterfall effect from HOB filters can agitate the water surface and cause CO2 to outgas. You would want to minimize the outgassing of CO2.

DIY CO2 is more feasable on smaller set ups. DIY CO2 on a 125G or 150G is hard to imagine. I tried DIY with my first planted tank, a 20T and had difficulty maintaining it. You will eventually switch to a pressurized CO2 system, it costs more initially, but it is more reliable, and provides a consistant output. Unstable CO2 can cause problems (algae). My 10 lb tank lasted me over 6 months and I was running a 50G and a 29G off of it. Bigger is better for CO2 tanks, the cost difference of filling up a 5 lb tank and a 10 lb tank is only a few dollars. I wish I had bought a 20 pounder, but I was worried it would not fit under my stand.

Lighting
Before you invest in lighting, it is probably best to decide what you are trying to accomplish first.
Do you want a high light, fast growth rate, pressurized CO2 set up, where you can grow just about anything, and that requires regular trimmings.
Or maybe you want a slower growth, low or medium level light, easier plants, less plant upkeep.

Linear T5 lights are surpassing or have surpassed Power Compacts in popularity, and LEDs are the future. They (LEDs) are here now, but they are a little costly, especially for such a large tank as yours. The technology will decrease in price, research is being done now at one university where they are working to develop a less expensive LED. It's the material the LEDs are made of that is driving up the price. As soon as they can manufacture them out of something less expensive, the price will drop.

I am not prepared to address the algae issues, or the unknow species of lake flora. But I'm guessing others will respond to your issues as well.

Good luck.

[krisw]

Hi Michael,

Hopefully we can help you get things under control. One reading you did not specify is your phosphates level. Your nitrates look a little bit high currently. The ideal ranges for those two chemicals are 5-10ppm nitrate and 1-2ppm phosphates. Of course, if your well-water is coming out with high nitrates due to farm runoff or the like, you may be correct that your best option is more plants to soak up those levels and/or change your water source to partial rainwater to dilute the nutrients. It would be good to know where you're starting for phosphates, however.

As Joe said, the number one major thing I see wrong with this setup is the DIY CO2. On tanks larger than 30G (maybe 55G if you have 2-3 bottles running simultaneously), DIY is not an option. Ideally, you would want a canister filter too, but with pressurized CO2 you can at least crank up the CO2 rate to partially compensate for the off-gassing your HOB filter is causing. That said, your sponge diffuser sounds very innovative, despite the inputted CO2 probably still being too low.

Your unidentified plant looks like Hydrilla to me, which is a federally listed noxious weed. There's probably not much better of a nutrient sucking plant on the planet than Hydrilla, but that prolific growth is why it's such a concern in our waterways (especially as you move south to places like Florida).

Finally, don't change too many things at once. If your light setup is growing plants, try to work within that for the time being. If it helps to unscrew a few bulbs in the meantime to stem the spread of algae, do that.

Ultimately, a planted tank is all about establishing equilibrium. You need to balance the light levels, CO2 levels, and nutrient levels for the amount of plant mass that you have in your aquarium. My guess is that your CO2 levels are far too low for the other two, so the plants are not able to fully grow (carbon limited), which allows algae to creep in.

If this is indeed the case, your options are either to add pressurized CO2, or reduce your light and nutrient levels. It sounds like you're already on course to address the nitrate issue with the rainwater collection system, so maybe that'll be the silver bullet for you.

[chris_todd]

Michael,
Welcome! Looks like you've got an excellent start (I think the tank is beautiful!), and already received some good advice (particularly Kris' suggestion to either knock down the light or make the jump to pressurized CO2).

The one thing that jumps out at me is the hardness and pH of your water - I assume you mean 300 ppm for hardness? As you point out, that's great for Rift Lake Cichlids, not so good for plants. The Vals should like it, and there are some other plants adapted to hard alkaline water, but most will prefer softer and neutral or slightly acidic. So your rainwater system will definitely help there. Oh, and yeah, Vals do not like Excel. And Java Fern? I can't count how many Java Ferns I've killed... It's not necessarily the bullet proof plant everyone says it is. For some people, it grows like a weed, but not for me. C'est la vie.

But like Kris says, it's about reaching an equilibrium through baby steps, so try changing one thing, then wait a few days or weeks. Then change one other thing, etc.

And don't be afraid of canister filters, they are by far the best choice for planted tanks (especially ones with pressurized CO2). But yeah, it's more expensive than other simpler filtration options. Check out Ken's Fish for some sick prices on Eheims, though, and the Rena XP series is quite popular, seems to work well, and is more reasonably priced than Eheims, though without the long history of reliability you're paying for with Eheim.

Good luck, and keep us updated on the changes you make, and the results they have!

Oh, one last thing - add more plants! And keep adding plants until the fish have no room to swim, LOL, and you'll lick that algae. Some plants will flourish, some will die, some will just piddle around in a state of existential despair trying to figure out if life is worth living, but you'll be building experience the whole time.

[gconcepcion]

i'd like to reaffirm what everybody has already said here, the only *major* problem that i see here ( there Are plenty of things you could tweak), is the lack of a pressurized CO2 system. if you didnt make ANY other adjustments/upgrades to the tank, a consistent pressurized CO2 setup is a MUST in a heavily planted large tank.

you can get. reg for as cheap as $30-$40 bucks and a 20lb cylinder for as little as $25 if you follow craigslist closely and post in the "items wanted" section.... i know i did

[Dekker001]

you can get. reg for as cheap as $30-$40 bucks and a 20lb cylinder for as little as $25 if you follow craigslist closely and post in the "items wanted" section.... i know i did

''

I will try that.

Just a little update...

Things seem to be going a lot better. The val is sending out some runners, the Java Fern almost all show signs of new growth, and I planted the foreground with all the dwarf chain sword I could get. I also have 2 small patches, of of 4-leaf clover, and one of dwarf sag. We'll see which ones do the best.The algae is clearing up and there is new growth also showing in the crypts and Java Fern.


I think the lowering the wattage/exposure times is what made the biggest difference. Now that I look at things with only 324w instead of 486, I think maybe I was burning some of the plants.
I have stopped the flourish and excel for now, and am just using iron ATM.

Going to resume the flourish in a bit, but at half dose at the most.

I still want to get a few flying foxes for maintinance, so if anyone knows of any near the Frederick area, let me know.

Thank you to everyone that offered the advice, it made a big difference.

[marydotson]

Michael,

Just curious--did you end up getting a pressurized CO2 system?

While water does absorb some Co2 from the air, generally, the levels just aren't sufficient to match the growth potential offered by a high light system (you've got a pretty high light:gallons ratio for either tank). However, you have that extremely hard water--so there is probably a lot of natural carbon there, but not in a form most plants can absorb. Adding pressurized CO2 will lower your PH, but probably not enough to fully overcome the water quality issues.

There are plants that live in high PH water that do break down carbons (Rick thinks Java Fern is one), but it's only something I'm only vaguely familiar with, since it's not a water issue we contend with. You might want to look into that--although you may not like those plants.

It sounds like you've had to cut back light--it's not clear if it's to the margin where it is now functioning as a low-light system to compensate for the low rate of CO2 absorption by the plants.

Anyhow, we're curious to see what happens next. I wonder--have you considered a more systematic approach to either water treatment (maybe there are filters you could use) and/or grey water collection? Or buying PH neutral water?

[ingg]

Don't bother with flying foxes, put in a small army of Otos is my opinion. Ricks has them at good pricing about always and is right in Frederick.

I was never able to do well with the spiral bulbs in a deeper tank - even in a 30 long, upper growth is awesome, but incredibly easy to shade out and/or insufficiently light the bottom. Controlling lighting is going to be a continual struggle for you I think... but not the first thing to fix. Long term, I think you might end up replacing it, as DIY lighting just isn't the same as actual fixtures with actual reflectors.... at least I couldn't get there.


Fix the CO2. First thing to do.

You have to give the plants the basic tools to grow, and DIY just plain isn't going to do it in a tank of this size. Keep your water level high to lessen the splash of the HOB's until they can be replaced with canisters. A new regulator is only $80, try co2-canisters.com as one good price point place.


Side note - Most plants, btw, do just fine in hard water. As Mary mentioned, some even love it - vals, btw, being one of them that loves hard water IMHO (c'mon, they grow in tidal marshes, talk about hard water!). Houston has liquid rock in comparison to anywhere around us.... and plants go crazy for the friends we have there. You've listed nothing I see that would struggle, so it isn't the hard water.

[Dekker001]

Ok. I guess I need to update this.

The plants are growing like crazy (Some of the val is approaching 4 feet long) to the point that they stripped all the NPK out of the water. . I started dosing that 3 days ago and the plant colors have come back nicely.

The anacharis is also going bonkers, and the Java Ferns all have new growth and are putting off plantlets.

Algae is completely gone.

Lighting: ATM I am sticking by my setup. Everything is growing fine, and I have the advantage of being able to add/subtract light from specific areas in the tanks by changing the bulb configuration. Penetraion doesn't seem to be an issue. I actually had to unscrew another 100w of the 300w that was running just to get those pics. If and when I get to the point that I want to try to make something flower, I plan on trying to mix in 2700k bulbs in strategic areas.

Fix the CO2. First thing to do.

I guess I just don't get this part. TBH I can't afford to swap to pressurized CO2 right now, but I don't understand why the DIY is considered an instant fail.

Setup: I am currently running 2-2gallon containers linked together and feeding into a hagen 301 powerhead impeller. The powerhead is pointed out across the front of the tank at a 45 degree downslope.

Observations: The powerhead chews up the CO2 into a almost invisible mist into the tank. As far a 2/3's of the way across the tank there is still a substantial ammount of almost mircoscopic bubbles that have not even risen halfway to the surface. Many even appear to disolve before they can reach the surface.

Question: Given the huge surface area presented by the CO2 getting chewed up into bubbles smaller than those you see in the finest quality beers, how is this so much less eficient than a bubble counter that simply slows a fairly large bubble down.

I have seen the ceramic diffusors, and the bubble size I am getting is easily the same.

Is the CO2 in a can different than that put off by yeast?

I will apologize now if I seem arguementative, sometimes they way I write comes across the wrong way. I am just trying to figure out exactly whay makes the DIY fail so badly.


Future Plans: As more cash frees itself up for my hobby, I do plan to switch to canister filters, for now I keep the tank filled to within 1/2".

I also put in a 300 gallon rainwater collection system, so every time it rains, I can get two nice water changes from it. (c'mon Earl)



Michael

[ingg]

Differences from pressurized to yeast systems:

1) output.

Unless you get nuts with yeast volumes, you simply cannot get a decent output rate from a yeast system. (not for a large tanks anyhow, smaller tanks are a bit easier to do with DIY)

If you do decide to get nuts, we get to

2) consistency.

Fluctuating CO2 levels are something algae loves. LOVES. Plants... not so much. DIY rigs start strong and peter out, nature of the beast as the yeast dies to alchohol.

assuming you get completely anal and swap out yeast say at least weekly, we still have..

3) consistency again

it takes a yeast system 12-24 hours to "pressurize" back up. So essentially, at least one day a week you screw up CO2 levels in the tank. Not a good thing under higher light levels.

And as an added bonus, you always cannot have...

3) variable control.

Used for several things.

One, turning off higher CO2 at night, when plants stop taking it.

Another less often used but valuable in aglae outbreaks - Pressurized systems are used by some - Jeff is one that does this I know, as does Kris I believe - to crank CO2 in early stages and promote growth, then dialed back when livestock is introduced into an estbalished system.



BTW, using 2 2 gallon systems and assuming fresh yeast (old yeast produces lousy and inconsistent output results) and a decent and consistent bubble rate output.... you'll likely spend most of the money of a pressurized system before 24 months are up, just on sugar and yeast. Pay yourself $5 an hour to change out the puke in the bottles, and it gets closer to 12 months I'd bet.




Think like this - think of planted tanks as sorta like cars. Lights are the engine of our cars.

High light tanks, as this was with all the light originally listed, are like NASCAR or Indy cars. Very exact, no room for errors, those cars do not backfire or have any hitches, new tires often, perfect brakes, alignment, everything.

All is in balance on that vehicle and has exact specs. For a planted tank, more light, more exacting and less tolerance for out of balance. CO2, a source of ferts, light, are the main items to keep in balance in a planted tank.

DIY rigs for CO2 on a high light tank (especially a large one, since the bubble rates are presumbaly more than in smaller tanks) is like running NASCAR on retreaded tires from Bob's Discount Tires. Work fine for the winter rat bomber put putting around town... not so much for racing Talledega.

You cranked light down, and had few if any plants that needed it to survive - you took out the NASCAR engine and put in a V6. That'd be my first guess of why things started to settle out.